基本信息：

- 视频内容：[Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu8M0SsqRtg)
- 英文文稿：[Chai with Pabrai](https://www.chaiwithpabrai.com/uploads/5/5/1/3/55139655/20240409_mohnish_pabrais_session_with_ypo_united_mosaic_on_march_20_2024_v2.pdf)
- 中文翻译：ShawnQ（[上](https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/Z86tZlsAJOZ4_gF4TdRTKA)、[下](https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/iNlC0u_DG0OkvTtCtFjO9Q)）
- 整理：Ponge

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# Mohnish Pabrai’s Interview with YPO United Mosaic on March 20, 2024

> ShawnQ：
> 
> 2024年3月20日，莫尼什·帕伯莱接受YPO United Mosaic采访，分享了他对于芒格思维模型的看法、与芒格的轶事以及克隆这一强大工具。YPO（Young Presidents’ Organization）是总部位于美国的全球首席执行官社区，由未满45岁的企业主席和CEO组成。YPO的马赛克联合是一家非盈利犹太组织，通过创新的犹太教育计划来加强青年犹太人与其犹太身份和以色列的联系。

**Robert:** 

Thank you so much for joining us today at “Exploring the Legacy of Charlie Munger, a Conversation With Mohnish Pabrai.” Hello. My name is Robert Pittenger with the YPO Mosaic Chapter. Mohnish Pabrai has been a YPO member since 1997, lives in Austin, Texas, and graduated from Clemson University. He is the CEO of Dhandho Funds, which he grew from a million dollars with eight investors to $840 million as of December 31st. A massive growth in that time. Mohnish authored two books on value investing, The Dhandho Investor and Mosaic: Perspectives on Investing. So it is only fitting that he is speaking to the YPO Mosaic Chapter today. Mohnish is a highly successful value investor who did it, according to him, by “shamelessly cloning” the management decisions of Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger. He always says thank you to them for his success. Mohnish Pabrai along with fellow YPO Guy Spier teamed up to purchase the 2007 charity lunch with Warren and Charlie for $650,000. The lunch was life-changing for both gentlemen and Mohnish is here to tell us more about his close friend, Charlie Munger, which he developed out of that lunch. Besides his friendship with Charlie, one of the things Mohnish is proudest of is his lifetime ban from a casino in Las Vegas for his Blackjack crowds. Mohnish thank you for being with us today. We are so grateful, and we look forward to hearing some of your wisdom about Charlie and about playing Blackjack. The first thing that we would like to start with is there is a quote that you have talked about that Charlie Munger has said, which is, “Take a simple idea and take it seriously.” Can you talk to us about what that means? What did Charlie mean by that line and how did you apply it in your life and your investing?

非常感谢大家参加今天的“探索查理芒格的遗产，与莫尼什·帕伯莱的对话”。大家好，我是YPO马赛克分会的罗伯特·皮腾格（Robert Pittenger）。莫尼什·帕伯莱自1997年以来一直是YPO会员，住在德克萨斯州奥斯汀，毕业于克莱姆森大学。他是Dhandho基金的CEO，该基金由最初的100万美元和8名投资者发展到截至去年12月末的8.4亿美元，在此期间实现了巨幅增长。莫尼什著有两本关于价值投资的书：《憨夺型投资者》（The Dhandho Investor）和《Mosaic: Perspectives on Investing》。因此，他今天在YPO Mosaic分会发表演讲是再合适不过了。帕伯莱是一位非常成功的价值投资者，据他自己说，他是通过“无耻地克隆”沃伦·巴菲特和查理·芒格的管理决策而取得成功的。他总是为其成功向他们表示感恩。莫尼什·帕伯莱与同为 YPO成员的盖伊·斯皮尔合作，以65万美元的价格买下了2007年与沃伦和查理的慈善午餐。这次午餐改变了两位先生的人生，莫尼什将在这里向我们详细介绍他的挚友查理·芒格。除了与查理的友谊之外，莫尼什最引以为豪的一件事就是他因为玩21点而被拉斯维加斯的一家赌场终身禁入。莫尼什，感谢你今天能加入我们，我们期待着聆听你关于查理、关于玩21点的智慧。首先，我想从你谈到的查理芒格说过的一句话开始，那就是“接受一个简单的想法并认真对待它”（Take a simple idea and take it seriously）。你能跟我们谈谈这句话的含义吗？查理这句话是什么意思，你是如何将它运用到你的生活和投资中的？

**Mohnish:**

First of all, it is a pleasure to be with you. It is always a pleasure to talk to YPOs. Like many of you, YPO has completely changed my life for the better. I cannot even imagine what my life would have been if there was no YPO. There were just so many changes and improvements YPO brought along. I also wanted to share my grief and condolences with all of you on October 7th. Many of you, directly or indirectly, maybe knew some of the victims or the people who got injured or who got taken hostage. My thoughts and prayers are with you on that, and hopefully, we will get to a finish line on that at some reasonable point. My friendship with Charlie was quite unexpected and accidental. I never expected to even meet him. That was a great bonus of my life.

首先，很高兴与你们一道。与YPO交流总是件乐事。和你们中的许多人一样，YPO彻底改变了我的生活。我甚至无法想象，如果没有YPO，我的生活会是什么样子。YPO给我带来了太多的改变和进步。我还想与大家分享我在10月7号的悲痛和哀悼。你们中的许多人可能直接或间接地认识一些罹难者、受伤者或被劫持的人质。对此，我与你们同在，并为你们祈祷（2023年10月7日，哈马斯为首的巴勒斯坦武装与以色列军队爆发武装冲突，是赎罪日战争以来，数十年来最激烈的一场战争）。我和查理的友谊是意外和偶然的。我从没想过能遇到他。这是我人生中的一大收获。

The first time I met Charlie was even before the Buffett lunch. It was at a YPO event. One of the YPOers, Peter Kaufman, arranged for him to speak to YPO. I had just moved to California. That was around 2004. That was the first time I met Charlie and hung out with him a bit. The quote you brought up “Take a simple idea and take it seriously,” is a famous Munger quote and it is something that I have always tried to practice in my life even before I heard of Charlie, or even before I heard about that quote because it is so powerful. As we go through life, we get some aha moments, where we uncover some nugget of wisdom or knowledge that maybe many other humans have either not figured out or not given the amount of weight they should to that particular piece of wisdom and knowledge. It can become a source of a tremendous competitive advantage. One of the things I learned about very early was the power of cloning and the power of copying.

我第一次见到查理是在巴菲特午餐之前，那是在一次YPO活动上，YPO的一位成员彼得考夫曼（Peter Kaufman）安排他到YPO演讲。当时我刚搬到加州。那大约是2004年。那是我第一次见到查理，并和他一起消遣了一会儿。你提到的那句“接受一个简单的想法并认真对待它”是芒格的名言，即使在我听说查理之前，甚至在我听说这句名言之前，我就一直努力在生活中践行这句话，因为它太有力量了。在我们的一生中，我们会有一些顿悟时刻（Aha Moment），我们会发现一些智慧或知识，它们可能是其他许多人没弄明白的，或者他们没有给予这些智慧和知识应有的重视。这可以成为巨大竞争优势的根源。**我很早就学会的一件事就是克隆的力量和复制的力量。**

I remember when I was in my early twenties, I read a book by Tom Peters. He was a big management guru in the eighties. In that book, he was giving the example of two gas stations in California that were diagonal on a busy intersection from each other. Both the gas stations were self-service stations. You come in, you pump your gas, and you leave. The owner would come out maybe once an hour, pick a random car, wash the windshield, or check the oil; just some extra service at no charge. The guy who was diagonal across the street was seeing this take place. He said to himself, “Well, that is kind of stupid. You cannot do it for everyone. If you did it for everyone, you would lose your shirt because you are not charging for it. He never copied or cloned that.

我记得在我20出头的时候，读过汤姆·彼得斯（Tom Peters）的一本书。他是80年代的管理大师。在那本书中，他举了一个例子：加利福尼亚州有两个加油站，它们位于一个繁忙十字路口的对角线上。这两个加油站都是自助加油站。你进来，加油，然后离开。其中一个店主可能一小时出来一次，随便挑一辆车，洗一下挡风玻璃，或是检查一下机油，提供些额外服务，不收任何费用。斜对面的那个人看到了这一切。他对自己说：“嗯…这有点愚蠢。你不能为每个人都这么做。如果你为每个人这么做，你会赔得血本无归，因为你是不收费的。他从未复制或克隆过这种做法。

Over time, what happened is that the gas station that was providing this random extra service saw an increase in business, and the one diagonal from him saw a decrease. Even after seeing the decrease, the guy across the street did not change his behavior. Tom Peter said, and this is what I found very unbelievable, that you can go to your most direct competitors and you can sit down with them, and you can give them all your trade scenes, everything that you learned that has given you an advantage, and they will listen to you, but there will be no behavior change. When I read that, I said, “This is ridiculous. This cannot be the way the world works.” I am in my early twenties, I haven't kind of experienced life, and I don't know kind of how things work, but I made a promise to myself that I was going to prove Tom Peters wrong, and I was going to prove him wrong two ways. One, I was going to look for instances where humans see something smart happening and copy or clone it, because that would prove him wrong, and the second is, whenever I see someone doing something smart, I am going to copy it because that also proves him wrong. From my early twenties till now, this year, I am going to be 60, what I found, because I became a student of this, is that Tom Peters was mostly right. I still do not know why this is the case, but humans have an aversion to cloning. They somehow consider it beneath themselves that they did not come up with the idea. What I also found is that when I forced myself to copy things that I found to be smart, it gave me a big edge. This was an example of a simple idea. What I found is that there was a very small sliver of humans who were master cloners, and these humans owned the world. They did very well.

随着时间的推移，提供这种随机的额外服务的加油站，生意越来越好，而他斜对面的加油站生意越来越差。即使看到生意减少，街对面的那家加油站也没有改变自己的行为。让我觉得非常不可思议的是，汤姆·彼得说：“你可以去找你最直接的竞争对手，你可以和他们坐下来，你可以给他们你所有的商业秘密，一切你所学到的能带给你优势的东西，然后他们会听你讲，但行为不会改变。”当我读到这句话时，我说：“这太扯了。世界不可能是这样运作的。我才20出头，还没多少生活经验，不知道事物是如何运作的，但我向自己承诺，我要证明汤姆·彼得斯是错的，我要从两个方面证明他是错的：第一，我要寻找一些实例，即人类看到聪明的事情发生，然后复制或克隆它，因为这将证明彼得斯错了；第二，每当我看到有人在做聪明的事情时，我就要复制它，这也能证明他是错的。从我20出头到现在，我快要60了，我发现，汤姆·彼得斯大部分时候都是对的。**我仍然不知道为什么会这样，但人类对克隆有一种反感，他们不知怎么地就认为这个主意不是自己想出来的就有失身份**。我还发现，当我强迫自己复制那些我认为聪明的事情时，就会给我带来很大的优势。这就是个“朴素的想法”的例子。我发现，只有极少数人类是克隆高手，这些人拥有全世界，他们做得极好。

For example, almost everything at Microsoft is cloned. Microsoft spends billions of dollars on its research labs. Nothing has ever come out of that. What has worked for them is looking at Lotus and creating Excel, looking at WordPerfect and creating Word, looking at the Mac and creating Windows, and so on. Even now, OpenAI is a partnership with AI. Google did the work. Microsoft did none of the work, and they are ahead. Sam Walton was another great cloner. In fact, James Sinegal, former CEO of Costco, had cloned the entire model from Sol Price, who he used to work for. Someone asked him, “What did you learn from Sol Price?” His response was, “It is the wrong question. Everything I know is from Sol Price. There is nothing I know that did not come from Sol Price.” These were people who took a simple idea very, very seriously. It is not just enough to read about some idea and be impressed with it. When you see that something grabs you, you have to go all in and you have to fight the normal tendency of the status quo.

举例来说，**微软几乎所有的东西都是克隆的**。微软在研究实验室上花费了数10亿美元，没有任何成果。对他们来说，行之有效的经验是：他们看到Lotus，然后创造了Excel；看到WordPerfect，然后创造了Word；看到Mac，然后创造了Windows，等等。即使是现在，OpenAI也是与AI的合作。谷歌（在AI方面）做了大量工作，微软没做什么工作，但他们却领先了。山姆·沃尔顿是另一个伟大的克隆者。事实上，好市多的前CEO詹姆斯·西内格尔（James Sinegal）就是从他曾经为之工作的索尔·普莱斯（Sol Price）那里克隆了整个模式。有人问他：“你从索尔·普赖斯那里学到了什么？”他的回答是：“这是一个错误的问题。我所知道的一切都是从索尔·普赖斯那里学来的。没有什么我知道的不是来自于索尔·普赖斯。”这些人非常、非常认真地对待一个简单的想法。**仅仅读到一些想法并对其印象深刻是不够的。当你看到某个引起你强烈共鸣的东西，你就必须全力以赴，你必须与想要维持现状的倾向做斗争。**（When you see that something grabs you, you have to go all in and you have to fight the normal tendency of the status quo）

Both Charlie and Warren, their success has come from the dogged pursuit of a few very simple ideas. For example, when they bought See's Candies in the 70s in California, it was a huge jump for them. They paid three times the book value for the company. They thought they were paying too much, and they didn't understand how good a business it was. The only thing Warren did every year was he left the management alone to run the business. However, on January 1st of each year, he changed all the prices significantly above the rate of inflation. For instance, if inflation was 3%, he would raise the price 10%, and the next year it was 3 or 4%, he would raise another 10%. What surprised him was he kept pounding in these very heavy price increases and unit volumes kept going up. It stunned him that you could have a business with this much pricing power. Both Warren and Charlie did not understand brands and did not understand the power of brands, but they became very ardent students of “What was this phenomenon? What did this mean? How can we apply this in other businesses?” Today, we see that it was fundamental to Berkshire, because it was, again, looking at a relatively simple idea, but trying to get your arms around it. Many of us start businesses because we see an offering gap. We see some product or service that should exist in the world but doesn't, or maybe there is not enough of it, so we go into it. Once we take that plunge, having this notion of the dogged pursuit of simple ideas will lead to a lot of good things.

**无论是查理还是沃伦，他们的成功都源于对一些“简单想法”的执着追求**。例如，当他们70年代在加利福尼亚收购喜诗糖果公司（See's Candies）时，对他们来说是一次（观念上的）巨大飞跃。他们为这家公司支付了3倍于账面价值的价格。他们认为他们付的太多了，而且他们并不了解这个生意有多好。沃伦每年做的唯一一件事，就是让管理层独自去经营这个生意。不过，在每年1月1日，他会上调所有价格，提价幅度远高于通胀增速。例如，如果通胀率是3%，他就把价格提高10%，第二年通胀率是3%或4%，他就再提高10%。让他惊讶的是，他不断大幅提价，销售量却持续上升。**原来企业可以拥有如此强大的定价能力，这一点让他震惊不已**。彼时，沃伦和查理都不了解品牌，不了解品牌的力量，但他们都成了热心的学生，钻研“这是什么现象？这意味着什么？我们如何将其应用到其他业务中？”今天，我们看到，这是伯克希尔的根基。这同样是看见了一个相对简单的想法，但试图去掌握它。我们中的许多人之所以创业，是因为我们看到了市场空白。我们看到一些产品或服务应该存在但却还没有存在于这个世界上，或者可能还不够多，于是我们投身其中。一旦我们投身其中，有了这种对简单想法执着追求的理念，就会有很多好事发生。

**Robert:**

Charlie kept the bust of Ben Franklin, didn't he?

查理保留了本杰明富兰克林的半身雕像，对吧？

**Mohnish:**

Yes.

是的。

**Robert:**

Can you talk about his connection? How did he feel connected to Ben Franklin? Can you talk about how he looked up to Ben Franklin? I would love to hear your thoughts on that and what Ben Franklin meant to Charlie.

你能谈谈他们有何联系吗？他觉得自己与本·富兰克林有什么联系？你能谈谈他是如何仰慕本·富兰克林的吗？我想听听你的想法，以及富兰克林对查理的意义。

**Mohnish:**

Ben Franklin is a person very much worth studying. Many of us are familiar with Ben Franklin, the founder of the United States. But Walter Isaacson wrote a very good biography of Ben Franklin. He is the same guy who wrote the biographies of Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. The overdosing on Franklin, which is a simple idea taken seriously is a good thing. Many aspects of Franklin would resonate with YPOers because Franklin started as an entrepreneur. He had a printing and a publishing business, and he yearned for financial independence, independence of thought, and all kinds of independence. In his early forties, he sold his business to his apprentice with no money. We can say changing hands at the time. He told his apprentice, “You just pay me a percentage of the profits over the next few decades.” It was a win-win for both sides. Once he freed himself from running a business, he could focus on bigger things. Franklin was a polymath. He invented so many things like bifocals and the lightning rod, and he figured out electricity and so many other things. He was a philosopher. Without him, there is no United States. He was very central to getting France to support the United States against England by sending troops. If you think about it, one monarchy was going to fight another monarchy to help the foundation of a democracy. It just does not make any sense on the surface, but the French came through, sided with the Americans, fought the British, and led to the independence of the colonials and the foundation and formation of America. He was also very pragmatic. The founding fathers are an interesting group and it is worth studying all of them, but they were very different from each other. Franklin had many ideas of what the United States should be. Many of those went by the wayside, but he was practical in the formation of coalitions and compromises to get to the endpoint. Charlie very much appreciated Franklin from the point of view of this creation of independence. Charlie himself yearned to be financially independent. He did not want to be financially independent to buy Ferraris. He wanted financial independence so he could do and say whatever he thought. He was not a servant to anyone. He could pursue all his passions in life. He used to joke and say, “I was always pursuing financial independence, and I overshot a bit.” He ended up with a few billion dollars that he did not need, but it is what it is. Many of us joke that Charlie is Ben Franklin reincarnated. If there ever is a reincarnation of Ben Franklin, it would have been Charlie Munger.

本富兰克林是一个非常值得研究的人。我们中的许多人都熟悉本·富兰克林，他是美国国父。但沃尔特·艾萨克森（Walter Isaacson）写了一本非常好的本·富兰克林传记。就是他写了史蒂夫·乔布斯和埃隆·马斯克的传记。“过度摄入”富兰克林就是一个简单的想法，认真对待将很有益处。富兰克林的许多方面都会引起YPO人士的共鸣，因为富兰克林是以企业家的身份起家的。他做过印刷和出版生意，渴望经济独立、思想独立和各种独立。40出头时，他免费把生意卖给了学徒，当时可以说是易手。他对徒弟说：“你只要在未来几十年里按利润的一定比例付给我就行。”这对双方来说都是双赢。一旦他从企业经营中解脱出来，他就能专注于更大的事业。富兰克林是个多面手，他发明了很多东西，比如双焦镜（bifocals）和避雷针，他还发明了电和很多其它的东西。他是一位哲学家。没有他，就没有美国。他是促使法国出兵支持美国对抗英国的核心人物。如果你仔细想想，一个君主制国家要与另一个君主制国家对抗，去帮助建立民主制度，表面看起来根本说不通，但法国人挺身而出，站在美国人一边，与英国人作战，促成了殖民地的独立以及美国的建立和形成。他还非常务实。美国国父是一个有趣的群体，他们所有人都值得研究，但他们彼此之间差异很大。富兰克林有许多关于美国应该是什么样的想法。其中许多想法被搁置一旁，但他在建立联盟，以及为达成最终目标而做出妥协方面非常务实。从创建独立性的角度看，查理非常欣赏富兰克林。查理本人也渴望经济独立（financial independence）。他不是为了买法拉利跑车而想要经济独立。他想要经济独立，这样他就可以做任何事，说任何话，他不想成为任何人的仆人。他可以追求生活中的一切热情。他常开玩笑说：“我一直在追求经济独立，结果有点做过头了。”他最终拥有了自己并不需要的几十亿美元，但事实就是这样。我们很多人开玩笑说，查理是本·富兰克林转世。**如果富兰克林有转世的话，那一定是查理芒格。**  

They are very similar in a lot of their attributes. When I met Buffett for lunch, I had asked him, “Mr. Buffett, if you could meet anyone living or dead for lunch, who would you like to meet?” He said, “First I would like to meet Sophia Lauren.” He was always a big fan of Sophia Lauren. Then he said, “No, no, no. Scratch that answer. I want to meet Isaac Newton. If I could, I would love to have had lunch with Isaac Newton.” I said, “Why do you pick Newton out of all the people you could have picked to have lunch with?” He said, “Well, Newton invented calculus. Newton probably was the smartest human who ever lived. Newton was the smartest, but Franklin was the wisest. My meeting with Newton would be along the lines of, he got swept up into the euphoria of the South Sea bubble. He lost his fortune when he first saw the bubble and the foolishness of the bubble. He then participated in the bubble himself and lost his fortune. That would be my line of inquiry.” Out of a mind that wonderful, the mind goes adrift, but Franklin was clearly the wisest, and Charlie was up there. I never met a man who was wiser or smarter than Charlie. There is a big difference in IQ level and wisdom even between Warren and Charlie. No comparison.

他们在很多方面都非常相似。当我与巴菲特共进午餐时，我曾问他：“巴菲特先生，如果你能与任何在世或已故的人共进午餐，你会想见谁？” 他说：“首先我想见见索菲亚·罗兰（Sophia Loren，意大利女演员，第34届奥斯卡影后）。” 他一直是索菲亚·罗兰的忠实粉丝。然后他说：“不，不，不。划掉这个答案。我想见艾萨克·牛顿。如果可以，我真想和艾萨克·牛顿共进午餐。” 我说：“为什么你在那么多可以共进午餐的人里面偏偏选中了牛顿？” 他说：“嗯...牛顿发明了微积分。牛顿可能是有史以来最聪明的人”…“牛顿是最聪明（smartest）的，但富兰克林是最有智慧（wisest）的…”然后他说：“我和牛顿会面的台词应该是关于他如何被南海泡沫的狂热冲昏了头脑。你知道，他先是看到了泡沫和泡沫的愚蠢，然后又自己参与了泡沫，结果失去了财富。这就是我的调查方向。”在一个绝妙的头脑中，思想也会漂泊不定。但富兰克林显然是最有智慧的，查理也在其列。我从未见过比查理更聪明的人。**即使在沃伦和查理之间，智商水平和智慧也有很大差距。没有可比性。**

**Robert:**

Can you talk more about that and how Charlie changed Warren's thought processes on investing over the years?

你能详细谈谈这一点吗？多年以来，查理是如何改变沃伦在投资上的思考过程的？

**Mohnish:**

In the Berkshire annual letter this year, if you go to berkshirehathaway.com and pull up the letter and read it, Warren has a one-page tribute to Charlie. He talks about how Charlie is the architect of Berkshire, and Warren is the general contractor. He said that Berkshire was built to the blueprint of Charlie. Warren was trained under Ben Graham. He was heavily influenced by Ben Graham. Ben Graham’s entire investing framework came out of the depression and came out of the market crash. He went looking for the stocks that were most widely mispriced, the cheapest stocks because he was always concerned about not losing and reducing risk. Charlie, in some of his early adventures in business, realized that some businesses just gave you one difficult decision after another, and other businesses were so easy to run, and they made a lot of money. There was no real correlation between how difficult a business was and how much money you made. In fact, there was an inverse correlation. He told Warren, “You made a big mistake buying Berkshire Hathaway, but I am going to try to help you fix it. Rather than buying a fair business at a good price, you need to buy good businesses at a fair price.” That is a huge transition for someone like Buffett, who has so much respect for Ben Graham. He also used an approach created by Ben Graham to compound money at very high rates, into the thirties per year. For someone to give up something that worked so well for him and move in the direction of Charlie Munger was because of the power of Charlie's mind. Charlie was remarkable in the sense that he let Warren come to the other side at his own pace. He never criticized him for any decisions he made. Warren till today has very deeply embedded in him the bargain hunter, which surfaces from time to time. Charlie would see that, but he would not rub it in his face.

在伯克希尔今年的年信中，如果你去 berkshirehathaway.com，调出信件阅读，沃伦用一页的篇幅向查理致敬。他谈到查理是伯克希尔的架构师（architect），而沃伦是总承包商（general contractor）。他说，伯克希尔是按照查理的蓝图建造的。沃伦师从本·格雷厄姆。他深受本·格雷厄姆的影响。格雷厄姆的整个投资框架都是在经济大萧条和市场崩溃中形成的。他去寻找那些被错误定价幅度最大、最便宜的股票，因为他总是关注在不要亏损，降低风险。查理在他早期的一些商业冒险中意识到，有些企业只会让你做出一个又一个艰难的决定，而另一些企业却很容易经营，还能赚大钱。**生意难不难做与你能赚多少钱之间并没有真正的联系。**（There was no real correlation between how difficult a business was and how much money you made）**事实上，两者是负相关的**。他告诉沃伦：“你收购伯克希尔哈撒韦时犯了一个大错，但我会尽力帮你弥补。你需要以一般的价格购买好的企业，而不是以好的价格购买一般的企业。”巴菲特非常尊敬本·格雷厄姆，对他来说，这是一个巨大的转变。他用本·格雷厄姆创造的方法，让资金以很高的收益率复利增长，年化回报高达30%。对巴菲特来说，放弃他已行之有效的方法，转而投向查理芒格的怀抱，正是因为查理思想的力量。查理的非凡之处在于，他让沃伦按照自己的节奏到达彼岸。他从不批评沃伦做出的任何决定。直到今天，沃伦身上还深深地印着“便宜货觅购者”（bargain hunter）的烙印，这种烙印时不时地会浮现出来。查理会看出这一点，但不会当着他的面说出来。

It was interesting because what I noticed with Charlie is he was on the board of Costco for almost three decades. I know that all the institutions whose boards and stuff he got involved with, like the Harvard Westlake School in Los Angeles, or the UCSB or Stanford, or the University of Michigan, improved. But the interesting thing about his finesse was he was able to improve them without the institutions feeling that he was imposing on them. He kind of cajoled them into a direction without them even realizing that they were being cajoled in a particular direction. I met James Sinegal, the founder of Costco, at the Charlie Memorial on March 10th. The family had a memorial for him in LA, a wonderful ceremony. James Sinegal spoke at the memorial. I asked him, “Charlie was on the board for three decades. What can you point to that is different at Costco than if Charlie was not there?” He could not think of anything and the reason he could not think of anything is because Charlie pushed them into an area in such a subtle manner that they think it is their ideas. He always pushed them to think long-term. Costco is not a retailer. It is a buying agent for the customer. It is a very different mindset and he reinforced that and the reinforcements took place in such a manner that they do not even realize that there was an influence, which is so beautiful.

这很有意思，因为我注意到查理在好市多董事会工作了近30年。我知道，他担任董事和亲身参与的所有机构都有所改进，如洛杉矶的哈佛西湖学校、加州大学伯克利分校、斯坦福大学或密歇根大学。但他的手段有趣的地方在于，他能够在改善这些机构的同时，不让它们觉得他是在强加给它们。他以一种哄骗的方式让这些机构朝某个方向发展，而这些机构甚至没有意识到他们是在被诱骗着朝一个特定的方向发展。3月10日，我在查理追悼会见到了好市多的创始人詹姆斯·西内格尔（James Sinegal）。他的家人在洛杉矶为他举行了一场盛大的追悼会。詹姆斯·西内格尔在悼念仪式上发表了讲话。我问他：“查理在董事会工作了30年。你能指出有什么是如果查理不在那里，好市多会有所不同的吗？”他想不出任何东西，而他想不出任何东西的原因在于，查理以一种非常微妙的方式将他们推向一个领域，以至于他们认为这是他们的想法。他总是推动他们进行长远思考。好市多不是零售商，它是顾客的采购代理。**这是一种截然不同的思维模式（mindset）。他强化了这种思维模式，而且强化的方式让他们甚至没意识到这种影响**。这真是太美妙了。

**Robert:**

Speaking of mindset, When Charlie made decisions, he had mental models that he would talk about. Can you talk about Charlie's mental models and how he made decisions?

说到思维模式，查理在做决定时，会谈到他的思维模型（mental models）。你能谈谈查理的思维模型以及他是如何做决定的吗？

**Mohnish:**

He was a very prolific reader. I would guess that Charlie was reading maybe 200 to 500 books a year in a wide variety of subjects. Sometimes I would go to see him and he would be reading a book on global warming. Many times I had seen him reading a physics book. He had a very wide range of interests. Two things were very amazing about Charlie's brain. One was that Charlie, from all that reading and experience, had etched into his brain certain mental models about the way the world works which would maybe sometimes not be the way we would think they were. For example, the model I gave you about humans having an aversion to cloning would not be something that you would normally conclude. There is another mental model, for example, which is the human tendency for reciprocation. When we lived in hunter-gatherer societies and small groups, and some guy had a very successful hunt and brought down a big beast to his community, he would store the beef or the meat in the bellies of his neighbors because there was no refrigeration. He would think to himself, “What are you going to do? You cannot eat the meat yourself, and you cannot store it, so it is going to spoil.” What he would do is he would call all his neighbors, and they would have a great feast, and everyone would remember that Joe is a good guy because Joe shared his spoils with them. Later, when Frank would have a big beast that he would bring down, Joe would be invited for sure to the feast. Reciprocation in humans, Charlie believed, was etched into our brains from the times of hunter-gatherer. But there is a quirk. The thing is that the mental model that got etched into our brains does not have a calibration engine. What that means is that if I do you a favor, all you know is Mohnish is a good guy. Mohnish did me a favor. You are not able to calibrate how big a favor did he do. You just have good feelings about Mohnish. When you do not have a calibration engine and you just feel good about somebody, salesmen take advantage of this particular quirk in human cognitive thinking.

他的阅读量非常大。我猜查理每年大概要读200到500本书，内容五花八门。有时我去看望他，他正在读一本关于全球变暖的书。有很多次，我看他在读一本物理书。他的兴趣非常广泛。查理的大脑有两点非常神奇：其一是，查理通过所有的阅读和生活阅历，在大脑中刻下了关于世界运行方式的某些思维模型，这些模型有时可能与我们想象的不一样。例如，我给你的关于人类厌恶克隆的模型就不是你通常会得出的结论。再例如，还有另一种思维模型，那就是人类的互惠倾向（human tendency for reciprocation）。当我们生活在狩猎/采集社会以及小群体中时，如果某人狩猎成功，为他的群体带来了一头大野兽，他会把牛肉或肉储存在邻居的肚子里，因为当时没有冷藏设备。他会想：“你能怎么办？你不能自己全吃了，你也不能储存，因为肉会变质。”他要做的就是召集所有邻居，他们会大吃一顿，每个人都会记住Joe是个好人，因为Joe与他们分享了他的战利品。后来，当Frank捕获了一头大野兽，他一定会邀请Joe参加盛宴。查理相信，从狩猎采集时代开始，人类的互惠倾向就已深深地烙印在我们的大脑中。但也有一个异常（quirk），那就是刻入我们大脑的思维模型并没有校准引擎。这意味着，如果我帮了你一个忙，你只知道莫尼什是个好人，莫尼什帮了我一个忙。你无法校准他帮了多大的忙。你只是对莫尼什有好感。当你没有校准机制，并且恰好对某人抱有好感时，销售员就会利用人类认知思维中的这一异常。

I have taken advantage of it when I have built my business. For example, if someone approaches Pabrai Investment Funds and says, “Hey, I am interested in your funds. Can you send me some information?” What most of my competitors do is send everything digitally because it is efficient. We send it digitally as well, but we also send a physical package. In the physical package, there are some goodies in there. There is a very nice cross pen, and there is a book and a few other things. The minimum investment is a few million dollars. When the recipient gets my pen, which is a very nice pen, they feel obligated in some way. The only way to kind of equalize that obligation is to wire a few million dollars. If they do not wire a few million dollars, returning that pen is complicated. They will need to package it and send it to the post office. If I send out a hundred of these packages, maybe one or two out of a couple of hundred come back saying, “Thank you for your package. I do not have an interest in the services of the fund. Warm regards.” But 98, 99% do not come back, and those 98, 99% feel good about Mohnish, and a decent percentage of them wire the money. It is $50 one way and a few million the other way because there is no calibration engine. Charlie had probably 50 to 100 of these models, maybe more. What was so fantastic about Charlie's brain is he had these models in his brain, and I have never seen any other human who can do this, which is why there are no humans with Charlie's brainpower. I would bring up something to him like some new stock or problem I am having with Dakshana Foundation, and he has instantly correlated three models and gives the answer. His ability to have these models in his brain and to know which three applied and how they interact with each other when they apply together, is a talent. I am a very juvenile kind of practitioner of that. Charlie was the Kung Fu master. He was a Yoda on that front, and it gave him a big advantage. Warren said that Charlie had the best mind to analyze any business. Anytime he brought up any business to him, he was so fast. Mainly he was fast at getting to a no and getting to a no for at least one good reason very quickly. So it took away a lot of noise from his life.

我在创业时也利用了这一点。例如，如果有人找到帕伯莱投资基金，说：“嘿，我对你们的基金感兴趣。能给我发一些信息吗？”我的大多数竞争对手都会以数字化方式发送所有内容，因为这样效率高。我们也以数字化的方式发送，但我们也发送实物包裹。在实物包裹里，还有另外几样好东西：一支非常漂亮的十字笔、一本书和其他一些东西。基金的最低投资额为几百万美元。当收件人收到我的笔，那支非常漂亮的笔时，他们会感觉自己有某种义务，唯一能平衡这种义务的办法就是汇几百万美元。如果他们不汇几百万美元，归还那支笔会很麻烦，他们需要包装好，然后寄到邮局。如果我寄出100个这样的包裹，也许有一两个会寄回来说：“谢谢你的包裹。我对基金的服务没有兴趣。问好。”但98%、99%的人都不会把包裹寄回来，而这98%，99%的人都会对莫尼什有好感，其中相当一部分人还汇了钱。因为没有校准引擎，所以一方花了50美元，另一方则是几百万美元。**查理大概有50到100个这样的模型，也许更多**。查理大脑了不起的地方就在于他头脑中的这些模型。我从未见过其他人能做到这一点，这也是为什么没有人拥有查理这样的脑力。我会向他提一些问题，比如一些新的股票或者我在Dakshana基金会遇到的问题，而他会立即将三个模型关联起来并给出答案。**他能够在大脑中建立这些模型，并且知道哪三个模型适用，以及当它们一起应用时会如何相互影响，这是一种天赋**。在这方面，我是一个菜鸟级的实践者，查理是功夫大师。他是这方面的尤达（《星球大战》中的尤达大师，形容某人有平静深邃的气度和不朽的智慧），这给了他很大的优势。沃伦说，查理拥有分析任何生意的最佳头脑。每当他向他（芒格）提及任何生意时，他的反应都非常迅速。多数时候他能很快就（对某个生意）说“不”，而且拒绝前至少能给出一个很好的理由（Mainly he was fast at getting to a no and getting to a no for at least one good reason very quickly）。这让他将大量噪声排除在人生之外。

**Robert:**

Speaking of bringing businesses to him for his feedback, you made some investments in companies in Turkey, years back when it was not on anyone's radar. I am curious, did you run those by Charlie? If not, it would be great to hear some of the things that you did run by Charlie and his thoughts.

说到把企业介绍给他，听取他的反馈，你几年前在土耳其投资了一些公司，当时还没人注意到土耳其。我很好奇，你有没有向查理汇报过那些投资？如果没有，我想听听那些你和查理讨论过的公司以及他的看法。   

**Mohnish:**

Every time I brought up Turkey to him, Charlie was very negative. He would instantly say “I do not want to do that. I do not want to hear about it.” But I persisted with Charlie. We own a Coke bottler in Turkey. I know Charlie knows the Coke business well because they are huge shareholders in Coke. I said, “Charlie, tell me how I am going to lose money on this one.” He replied, “It is going to work.” I said, “But you were so negative.” He said, “No, that is going to work. That is fine.” I saw him kind of shift. His thoughts on something like Turkey were that it would be so much work for him to take that leap, to do the work, to make the trips. I then thought that I was going to focus because we are in a business with no called strikes.” It is not like baseball; three strikes and you are out. You can let a thousand good pitches go by. If Charlie says “no” to Turkey, and Turkey does well, it does not matter. What matters is that he should not be saying “yes” to something that does not do well. That is kind of how he thought about it. Regarding Turkey, I finally got him to move a little bit. That was okay.

每次我向他提起土耳其，查理都非常消极。他会立刻说：“我不想这么做，我不想听。”但我还是坚持跟查理说。我们在土耳其拥有一家可乐装瓶厂，我知道查理很了解可乐的生意，因为他们是可乐的大股东。我说：“查理，告诉我这次怎么会赔钱？”他回答说：“这（笔投资）会成功的。”我说：“但是你很消极。” 他说：“不，那会成功的，那还不错。”我看到他在转变。他对土耳其这类事情的想法是，要他进行冒险尝试前，他需要做大量工作，需要去拜访几次，付出很多努力。后来我寻思着，我需要聚焦，因为我们从事的是一项不会被叫“坏球”的事业（棒球比赛中，司球裁判的作用是根据投手投出的球飞过本垒的位置来判断好球、坏球、三振）。这不像棒球，三振出局。（投资中），你可以让无数个“好球”擦肩而过。**如果查理对土耳其说“不”，而土耳其表现出色，这无关紧要。重要的是，他不应该对表现欠佳的东西说“好”**。他就是这么想的。关于土耳其，我终于让他转变了一点。这还ok了。

**Robert:**

Can you talk about his sense of humor? I heard something that even when he got to the hospital his last time, he still had a sense of humor.

你能谈谈他的幽默感吗？我听说即使他最后一次住院时，仍然很有幽默感。

**Mohnish:**

He joked with the nurse. The nurse asked him, “How are you?” He said, “Oh, I am dying. How about you?” Exactly one month before Charlie passed away, I had my last dinner with him. I did not know it was going to be my last time seeing him. It was one-on-one, just him and me on a Saturday at his home. Of course, his mind was very sharp, but he was telling me there were a lot of things wrong with his body. The day before he passed away when he was in the hospital, he was trying to close one last grant to a nonprofit. I do not think Charlie had a belief in God. He was agnostic. He did not believe there was something after death; he believed this was it.

他和护士开玩笑。护士问他：“你还好吗？” 他说：“哦 ，我快死了，你怎么样？”刚好就在查理去世前一个月，我和他最后一次共进晚餐，我不知道那将是我最后一次见他。那是一次一对一的会面，只有我和他，一个周六，在他家里。他的思维一如既往的敏锐，但他告诉我他身体很多地方不太对劲。在他去世前一天，他正试图为一家非营利组织完成最后一笔捐赠。我不认为查理信仰上帝，他是不可知论者。他不相信死后还会有什么，他相信今生就是一切。

In an interview he gave about a month before he passed away they asked him, “What would you like written on your gravestone if someone were to put something?” He said, “I tried to be useful.” I tried to be useful is exactly a simple idea that he took very seriously. He extracted everything he could from his mind and his body till the last day. On the last day, his family is with him, but he is still trying to help some non-profits do better. There is no upside to him doing that. He is not trying to publicize that. There is no legacy or anything. It is just a selfless act. And even with Warren, the relationship was built because of so many selfless acts. There is a book that I do not think Charlie ever read, by Adam Grant called Give and Take. It is a great book to read. Adam Grant said that there are three kinds of people in this world, the givers, the takers, and the matchers. The givers are the people who are always trying to do things for others without any scorecard or anything in return. They just want to help you. There is no need to explain what a taker is. You just want to have nothing to do with a taker. They just want to extract from you and never give anything back. They are selfish people. The matchers think they are smart. For example, a matcher would say, “Robert did X for me so I am going to do exactly X for him.” What Adam pointed out in his book is that the givers end up owning the world because there is so much goodwill they generate with all the people around them. Charlie never read that book, but Charlie was a giver. He never tried to think about what was in it for him. What is he going to get out of this? I will tell you a funny story that has a couple of very beautiful lessons. I used to play bridge with Charlie at the LA Country Club. He would play on Fridays and one or two times a month I would meet him and his friends for bridge. Usually, we would have lunch starting at about 12.30 at the LA Country Club in the dining room. They had very nice food and ambiance. Then we would go off to play bridge for three, or four hours. Once I was sitting on a table for four. Across from me were Charlie Munger and Rick Guerin. They were very close friends. Rick was the one who brought See’s candies to their attention. I told the two of them, “You guys think this is just a bridge game, just a lunch, but I want to tell you guys that this is an iconic moment. Some yo-yo Indian guy from some of the suburbs of Mumbai is sitting with two massive historic icons. I know you guys do not think that is the case, but that is how it is for me. tell me about one of the more interesting deals when you guys were in the sixties shooting fish in a barrel after the water had been run out with all the deals you guys were doing,

在他去世前一个月接受采访时，他们问他：“如果有人要在你的墓碑上写点什么，你希望写什么？”他说：**“我试着做个有用的人。”**（I tried to be useful）“试着做个有用的人”，这就是个简单的想法，但他非常认真地对待它。他从头脑和身体中提取了所能提取的一切，直到最后一天。最后一天，他的家人和他在一起，但他仍在努力帮一些非营利组织做得更好。这样做对他没什么好处，他并不想宣传这些，不是为了遗产或其它任何东西。这只是一种无私的行为。即使与沃伦的关系，也是因为许多无私的行为而建立起来的。有一本书，我不认为查理读过，作者是亚当·格兰特，书名叫《Give and Take》（《沃顿商学院最受欢迎的思维课》，也译作《予和求：取得成功的革命性方法》），是本值得一读的好书。亚当·格兰特说，世界上有三种人：给予者（giver）、索取者（taker）和互利者（matcher）。给予者是那些总是努力为他人做事，不求任何回报的人。他们只是想帮助你。索取者没什么解释的必要，你只想与索取者毫无瓜葛，他们只想从你身上榨取，却从不回报，是自私的人。互利者自以为很聪明。例如，互利者会说：“罗伯特为我做了 X件事，所以我也要为他做X件事。”亚当在书中指出，给予者最终会拥有世界，因为他们为周围人制造了太多善意（goodwill）。查理从未读过那本书，但查理是个给予者。**他从不试着琢磨他能从中捞到什么，对他有什么好处**。我可以给你讲一个好笑的故事，其中蕴含一些美妙的经验。我曾经在洛杉矶乡村俱乐部和查理一起打桥牌。他每周五打，我每个月会和他和他的朋友们打一两次。通常，我们会在12:30左右在洛杉矶乡村俱乐部的餐厅共进午餐，那里的食物和环境都很不错，然后我们会打3或4个小时桥牌。有一次，我坐在一张四人桌上，对面是查理·芒格和瑞克·盖林（Rick Guerin，伯克希尔早期合伙人之一，三人曾一起拜访企业，做投资决定。1973-1974年，美国股市2年内重挫70%，盖林因使用保证金融资而被迫将持有的伯克希尔股份卖给巴菲特。盖林是芒格长期挚友，任每日期刊董事会副主席）。他们是非常要好的朋友，就是瑞克让他们注意到喜施糖果公司的。我对他们说，“你们以为这只是一场桥牌游戏，只是一顿午餐，但我想告诉你们，这是一个标志性时刻。来自孟买郊区的一个随随便便的印度人，却与两个重要历史人物坐在一起。我知道你们俩不这么认为，但对我来说就是这样。给我讲讲你们在60年代的有趣交易吧，那时你们做了那么多交易，在水都快干了的“桶里射鱼”（形容60年代时市场竞争小，收购交易很容易做）。

The two of them look at each other and Rick Guerin tells him, “Tell him about that redhead nurse.” Charlie's language always with me was very colorful. I do not think we went three sentences without the F word and Charlie says, “Oh, yes Rick, that is a good story.” He then tells me, “There was this maverick entrepreneur in Southern California, who had come up with this liquid adhesive you could pour into your radiator if there was a leak, and it would automatically seal any leaks. To build sales, what the guy did was he used to go to different auto repair shops, call the mechanics, and then pull out his gun and shoot a hole in his car's radiator, and then pour the liquid and show them that there was no leak. That is how he built sales. This guy passes away with a heart attack. The wife who is grieving, finds out that the executor of his will is this redhead nurse who he was having an affair with that she did not even know about. He left the business and all the assets to the wife, but he made the mistress the executor of the will. Both women were pissed off at each other. The business itself was bankrupt. They had some debt, and it did not have any value beyond the debt.” Charlie and Rick wanted to buy the business. Two $80,000 notes were owed to two aunts of the wife. They could have bought those notes at a discount from those two women. The equity did not have any value. They could have maybe a hundred thousand instead of 160,000. But Charlie told Rick that they should not take advantage of these women and that they should pay full price for them. He talked to the wife and he talked to the two aunts, and he said, “Look, we would like to buy the business. It does not have much value. We pay 80,000 to each of you, and we need you to sign off on it. We also need the nurse to cooperate as well because she is the executor of the will.” The nurse was not willing to sign off on anything. She was not going to get anything, and she was pissed off. Charlie arranged to meet the nurse at the California Club for lunch. He had never met her before. He wanted to smooth the feathers and explain to her that this was the right thing to do. The California Club is a very kind of blue-blood old institution with big ceilings. Charlie always sat in the same dining table. I met him for the first time at the California Club. She came directly from work in her nurse's uniform, which was one size too small for her. Everyone in the dining room thinks that Charlie is having lunch with a porn star and they are aghast. They were all thinking that this was Mr. Munger. He is a very honorable citizen of Los Angeles. What is he doing with a porn star? Charlie himself is surprised at the way she appears. Anyway, Charlie says, “I kind of controlled myself. I tried to control my eyes. I pacified her, and we got the deal done.” They bought the business for 160,000 and they got it done.

两人对视一眼，瑞克·盖林对他说：“跟他说说那个红发护士。”查理和我讲话的语言总是丰富多彩，我觉得我们没有哪三句话不带“他妈的”这种词。然后查理说：“哦，是的，瑞克，这是个好故事。”然后他告诉我，南加州有位特立独行的企业家，发明了一种液体粘合剂，如果散热器漏水，你可以把这种粘合剂倒进散热器里，它就会自动密封掉任何泄漏。为了扩大销售，他经常去不同的汽车修理店，电话通知机修工，然后掏出枪，向汽车散热器上射一个洞，倒入液体，向他们展示没有泄漏。他就是这样创造销售业绩的。这家伙因突发心脏病去世了，悲痛欲绝的妻子发现，他的遗嘱执行人是位红发护士，而她甚至不知道他与这位红发护士有染。他把生意和所有资产留给了妻子，却让情妇成为遗嘱执行人。两个女人都很生气。企业本身已经破产，欠了一些债，除了债务，企业没有任何价值。查理和瑞克想买下这家公司。有两张8万美元票据归属于妻子的两个姑姑，他们本可以用折扣价从这两位女士手中买下这些票据。因为股权没有任何价值，他们本可以花10万而不是16万美元。但查理告诉瑞克，他们不应占这些女人的便宜，应该全价买下它们。他跟那位妻子和她两个姑姑谈了谈，说：“听着，我们想买下这桩生意，它没有太多价值，我们愿意付你们每人8万，需要你们签字同意。我们也需要护士配合，因为她是遗嘱执行人。”护士不愿签任何东西，因为她什么也得不到，很生气。于是查理安排在加利福尼亚俱乐部与护士共进午餐。他从未见过她，想要平息她的怒气，向她解释这样做是正确的。加利福尼亚俱乐部是个高贵而古老的机构，庄严肃穆，查理总是坐在同一张餐桌。我第一次见他就在加州俱乐部。那位护士穿着护士服直接从公司赶来，这套制服对她来说太小了。餐厅里每个人都以为查理在和一个艳星共进午餐，惊呆了。他们想，这可是芒格先生，一位非常可敬的洛杉矶市民，怎么会和一个色情明星在一起？查理自己也对她的出场方式感到惊讶，总之，查理说：“可以说我一直控制自己。我试着控制我的眼睛。我安抚了她，然后我们完成了交易。”他们以16万的价格买下这家公司。

Two years after that Rick Guerin needed money and they owned the business 50-50. He told Charlie, “Listen, I need a couple of hundred thousand and I am tight and I want to sell you this business. You can take over a hundred percent of it.” Charlie asked him, “What do you think it is worth? What is your portion worth?” Rick says, “My portion is worth 200,000.” Charlie says, “No, you are wrong. Your portion is worth 300,000, and here is the cheque for 300,000.” He did not take advantage of those two women. He paid them a full price even though he did not know them. He also did not take advantage of Rick Guerin. Think about it. A seller is proposing a selling price, and you are proposing to pay 50% above the selling price the seller is proposing. That is how Charlie was. He always wanted to make sure that if you did business with him, you felt like you got the better end of the deal. Once you do something like that for Rick, you have cemented a friendship and trust and everything else for a lifetime and beyond. Rick will do anything for him now. I found the story funny, but that story has many good lessons for us. In business, when we think about things in that context of win-win as opposed to transactional, we get a lot of tailwinds.

两年后，瑞克·盖林需要钱，他们各占50%股权。他告诉查理：“听着，我手头很紧，需要几十万，我想把这笔生意卖给你，你可以占100%的股份。”查理问他：“你觉得它值多少钱？你那部分值多少钱？”瑞克说：“我那部分值20万。”查理说：“不，你错了。你那份值30万，这是30万支票。”他没有占那两个女人的便宜，尽管他并不认识她们，但还是付给了她们全价。他也没有占瑞克盖林的便宜。想想看！卖方提议了一个售价，而你提出支付比卖方所提售价高出50%的价格。查理就是这样，**他总是想确保，如果你和他做生意，你觉得你获得了更好的交易**。一旦你为瑞克做了这种事，你就在一生甚至更长的时间里，巩固了一段友谊、信任和其它的一切。瑞克现在会为他做任何事。我觉得这个故事很有趣，给了我们许多好的启示。生意场上，**当我们以“实现双赢”而非“促成买卖”考虑问题，事情会更顺风顺水。**（In business, when we think about things in that context of win-win as opposed to transactional, we get a lot of tailwinds）

**Robert:**

What did Charlie say in your conversation with him when you told him you got banned from the casino?

当你告诉查理你被禁止进入赌场时，他说了什么？

**Mohnish:**

Warren used to always say, “I wanted to be a bookie, but my parents would not approve of it, and so I went into the insurance business.” They are both betting personalities; they are gamblers, but they are gamblers in the sense that they only want to bet when the odds are in their favor. They are never going to go and sit down at the table in Vegas or anything. I knew that Charlie had this gambling mindset. I once went to him and said, “Charlie, by the way, I just got banned from this casino in Vegas.” I explained to him how I got banned, and I explained to him my system. He had so much fun with that. He loved that because, for him, it was all about these bets where the odds were in your favor. I found an anomaly where this casino had thin odds because their location was off-strip, and they needed to bring people in to come and play there. They had improved the game versus what you would normally find. The game was still in their favor. The average guy playing there would lose money. I had a good relationship with these guys. I had taken them for about 150,000 over a few months. The general manager came and sat around me and said, “Stop dealing to him.” Then the dealer was coming to deal, and he got angry. He said, “Right now stop dealing to him.” She is taken aback, and then he tells me, “Look, Mohnish, we love you. We enjoy having you. I watched your videos. I read your book. But we cannot have you play Blackjack here anymore.” I said, “You guys have problems with card counters. I am not counting cards.” He said, “That is what had us confused, because we watched the tape for a while, and it was very clear to us that you were not counting cards. But we figured out that we cannot beat your system, so we are done. You can come to the casino, you can use all the facilities, but you cannot sit down and play Blackjack.” I was actually very proud of that because the system worked. That is what I was trying to do. From an hourly pay point of view, I am better off pursuing other pursuits, but it was just fun to do it.

沃伦以前总说：“我想做个赛马赌者（bookie），但我父母不同意，所以我就做了保险业。”**他们都是赌者，但他们是赌者的意义在于，只有当赔率对他们有利时，他们才愿意下注**。他们永远不会坐在拉斯维加斯或其他地方的赌桌前。我知道查理有这种“赌博心态”。有一次我对他说：“查理，顺便说一句，我刚被拉斯维加斯一家赌场禁止了。”我向他解释了我被禁的原因，还向他解释了我的（下注）系统，他听得津津有味，喜欢得不得了，因为对他来说，这些都是赔率对你有利的赌注。我发现了一个反常现象，这家赌场的赔率很低，因为他们的地点不在赌城里，需要吸引人们去玩。与你通常能找到的赌场相比，他们提高了游戏（的胜率），但游戏仍然对他们有利，一般人在那里玩都会输钱。我和那些人关系很好，几个月下来，我赢了他们大约15万美元。总经理来了，坐在我身边说，“别再给他发牌了。”结果荷官继续发牌，经理勃然大怒，说，“现在就停止跟他交易。”荷官大吃一惊，然后经理对我说，“听着，莫尼什，我们爱你，我们喜欢你，我看过你的视频，读过你的书。但我们不能再让你在这玩21点了。” 我说：“你们无法容忍算牌，但我没有算牌。”他说：“这正是让我们困惑的地方，因为我们看了录像带，很清楚你没有算牌。但我们发现，我们无法打败你的系统，所以我们不干了。你可以来赌场，可以使用所有设施，但不能坐下来玩21点。”事实上，我对此感到非常骄傲，因为我的系统是有效的，这就是我试图做的。从时薪的角度看，我还是追求其它事务更好，但做这些事就是很有意思。

**Robert:**

Over the years, Mohnish, what surprised you the most about Charlie?

莫尼什，这么多年来，查理最让你感到惊讶的是什么？

**Mohnish:**

We know that he was a good businessman, a good investor, and a good partner. He had eight kids. He had so many in-laws, grandkids, and great- grandkids, with a wide range of personalities. Charlie loved the quote of Ben Franklin that said, “Keep your eyes wide open before you get married, and half shut afterward.” What I noticed with him is that he applied a very different kind of framework and mental model in how he dealt with different people. I would watch him interact with someone, and then when the person left, he would understand that that person had different quirks. There were a lot of lessons I learned. This was not just some polymath. This was a person who was wise and understood the spectrum of the way humans were and how to navigate around that spectrum. He had seen and figured out a lot of things about different nuances, and it was very helpful to him.

众所周知，他是个好商人、好投资者和好伙伴。他有8个孩子，有很多姻亲、孙子和重孙，性格迥异。查理很喜欢本·富兰克林说过的一句话：“婚前睁大你的眼睛，婚后睁一只眼闭一只眼。”（keep your eyes wide open before you get married, half shut afterwards）我注意到，他在与不同人打交道时，采用了截然不同的框架和思维模式。我会看着他与某人互动，然后当那个人离开时，他会明白那人的不同寻常之处。我学到了很多东西。他不仅是个博学的人，更是个睿智的人，了解各式各样人的本质，以及如何在这些人当中游刃有余。他看见并弄清了大量事物间的细微差别，这对他很有帮助。

**Robert:**

Mohnish, you know YPOers very well. How can we as YPO become better investors modelling ourselves after Charlie?

你非常了解YPO会员。作为YPO，我们如何才能以查理为榜样，成为更好的投资者？

**Mohnish:**

There is a book called Poor Charlie’s Almanack. They have come out with a new edition, but the older editions are better. The new edition does not have that many illustrations. At the back of the book, you can see the 11 speeches he gave. There is a lifetime of wisdom in those speeches. If someone went through those speeches and understood them, it would be better than a four-year college degree anywhere. One of those speeches is about the psychology of human misjudgment. He goes through different mental models of how =because of all our evolution, our brains are very far from just purely rational. having a good understanding of exactly how the apparatus between our ears functions gives us a huge leg up. A lot of his wisdom was distilled into those 11 speeches. If I reread them every year, I can swear that I am reading something I have never read before. Some passages I have never read before. Different things kind of dawn on me at different times. That is what I would say is a great way to improve not just as a business leader, but as a spouse, a father, a grandfather, a son, or a daughter.

有本书叫《穷查理宝典》（Poor Charlie's Almanack）。他们出了新版，但旧版更好，新版没那么多图解。在书的后半部分，你可以看到他发表的11篇演讲。这些演讲蕴含着他一生的智慧。**如果有人能读完那些演讲并理解它们，那将比任何地方的四年制大学学位都要好**。其中一篇演讲是关于人类误判心理学，他检视了不同的心理模型，说明由于所有进化过程，我们的大脑远非纯粹理性的。如果能够很好地了解我们两耳之间的仪器是如何运作的，我们就会有很大的优势。他的很多智慧都浓缩在这11篇演讲中。如果我每年重读这些演讲，我发誓，我会读到一些我以前未曾读到的东西。有些段落我以前从未读过。在不同时期，会有不同的东西让我茅塞顿开。我想说的是，那不仅是提升自己作为商业领袖的好方式，也是提高自己作为配偶、父亲、祖父、儿子或女儿的好方式。

**Robert:**

I would like to open up for questions if anyone has questions at this time. Bruce Bendell says, “You have been in YPO for over 25 years. What, if anything, did Charlie think about YPO?

如果大家现在有问题，想请大家提问。Bruce Bendell说：“您加入YPO已超过25年。查理对YPO有什么看法？”

**Mohnish:**

Both Charlie and Warren were not members of YPO. Warren used to joke and say, “I keep telling them, make an age exception for me. Let me in, but they will not.” They both had a lot of respect for YPO. They both spoke to YPO on multiple occasions, and one time I discussed YPO directly with Charlie, and he said it is a wonderful organization with a great mission, and it is good. They understood it, and they were right on that.

查理和沃伦都不是YPO成员。沃伦经常开玩笑说：“我一直跟他们说，给我在年龄上破个例，让我加入，但他们不同意。”他们都非常尊重YPO，曾多次与YPO交谈。有一次我直接与查理讨论YPO，他说这是一个了不起的组织，有伟大的使命，它很好。他们理解这个组织，并且他们是对的。

**Robert:**

Boaz Gilad has a question. He asks, “How did Charlie manage the amount of money that he left behind?”

Boaz Gilad有一个问题。他问：“查理是如何管理他身后留下的这笔钱的？”

**Mohnish:**

Charlie's wife had an accident. She fell backward down the stairs at their home in Minnesota. She suffered for maybe a year or 18 months. She had a lot of surgeries and then passed away. She had always wanted half their assets to go to their eight children, and it just so happened that the year she died was the only year in the US tax code when there was no estate tax. There was a quirk in the way the taxes were done. It just happened that she died that year. At that time, Charlie's net worth was about 2 billion or so. This happened in 2010. He passed on about 125 million to each of his kids at that time in Berkshire stock, which would probably be worth around 400 million or something now. The kids have done amazing things from a philanthropic point of view. They did very impressive things. They have done very differently from each other. The other half, he used to tell me that he was just focused on giving it away. He made quite a few different grants. I believe when he passed away, it may have been maybe a couple of billion. I do not know what he intended to do with that. I do not think he was planning for more to go to the kids. He must have planned something out, but I am not sure about that.

（许多年前），查理的妻子出了次意外。她从明尼苏达州家中楼梯上摔了下来，大概承受了一年或18个月的痛苦，做了很多手术，然后去世了。她生前一直希望把一半的财产留给8个孩子，而她去世那年恰好是美国税法中唯一没有遗产税的一年。当时纳税方式有个异常，她就是在那一年去世的。当年，查理的净资产约20亿美元左右，这事发生在2010年，他以伯克希尔股票的形式，给他每个孩子转让了约1.25亿美元，这些股票现在可能价值4亿美元左右。从慈善的角度讲，他的孩子们做了很多了不起的事，事情不尽相同，但令人印象深刻。芒格曾经告诉我，剩下的另一半（财产），他就只专注于如何捐出去。他做了很多不同的赠款。我相信，当他去世时，可能已经有几十亿了。我不知道他打算用这笔钱做什么，我不认为他打算留更多钱给孩子们。他一定计划了什么，但我不太确定。

**Robert:**

Anything else you want to share before we go, Mohnish?

在离开之前，你还有什么要分享的吗，莫尼什？

**Mohnish:**

I always enjoy speaking to YPO and of course being able to speak about Charlie was wonderful. I miss him terribly. I have been reflecting. We had a very unlikely 15-year friendship, and I never expected that. I always remember I would walk into Charlie's house and he would be working on some architectural plans. He would see me and there would be a twinkle in his eyes. He would be very happy and excited to see me. We always had a great time together. One of the things I have always felt is that I had a lot of faith in Charlie's judgment. He had a very strong, positive opinion of me. Any time I get into self-doubt, I remember that Charlie thought well of me. Life is okay. Everything is okay. I always fall back to that. I miss him a lot, and I am very grateful that my life was able to cross with such a remarkable person. I will never see someone like that again. They broke the mold after they made Charlie, so we are not going to see another Charlie Munger again. But he left us a great body of work, and it is wonderful to be able to look at that.

我一直很享受与YPO交谈，当然，能够谈及查理也是极好的。我非常想念他。我一直在反思。我们之间的友谊长达15年，这是我始料未及的。我一直记得，我走进查理家，他正在设计一些建筑图纸，看到我，眼睛里闪烁着光芒。他见到我会格外开心和激动，我们共度的时光总是很愉快。我一直觉得，我对查理的判断力有很强信念。他对我的评价非常坚定、正面。每当我陷入自我怀疑时，我就会想起查理对我的评价很高。（这让我觉得）生活没问题，一切都很好。我总是回溯于此。我非常想念他，也非常感激生命中能与这样一位杰出的人交汇。我再也见不到这样的人了。**在造就查理时，他们打破了常规，所以我们不会再看到另一个查理·芒格了**。但他给我们留下了大量作品，能看到这些作品真是太好了。

**Robert:**

Mohnish, thank you for taking the time. You are just an amazing disciple of both Charlie and Warren. I enjoyed following you on your podcast and social media. Thank you for being so active, and we hope to have a future connection and discussion with you at other events.

莫尼什，谢谢你抽出时间。你是查理和沃伦的杰出门徒。我很喜欢在播客和社交媒体上关注你，感谢你如此活跃，希望今后能在其他活动中与你进行交流和讨论。

**Mohnish:**

Absolutely. I very much enjoyed Robert and thank you very much for all of you and all the best.

当然。罗伯特，我很享受，非常感谢你们所有人，祝你们一切顺利。